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  •  The point though is that this isn't like the cold (none / 0)

    war when the threat of nuclear annihilation was real, but ultimately abstract. The American people will simply not accept a policy of containment, when containment means a massive attack on American soil every few years. We won the cold war largely by sitting it out, and waiting for the Soviet Empire, and the ideology that guided it, to die of its own accord. Our interventions and covert dirty wars didn't particularly help. What's different now is that both the neoconservative way and the liberal internationalist way are likely to make matters worse for us.

    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

    by spot on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 10:42:00 PM PDT

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    •  We need to export our talents. (none / 0)

      If we simply continue to be materialistic prigs, we will most assuredly suffer repeated attacks.

      But if we devote ourselves and our vast resources to solving some of the tenacious problems around the world, like we did back in the Carter era (even with nuclear annihiliation on the horizon), then we will be instrumental in fostering a world community that doesn't unite around their common hatred of us.

      Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. --Friedrich Nietzsche (Beyond Good and Evil)

      by perspicio on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 10:48:39 PM PDT

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      •  I have no trouble with foreign aid and (none / 0)

        development assistance for most of the rest of the world, but much of the Muslim world has become like that mean old man who lived down the street with the nasty dogs and the shotgun whose house your father told you never to go near. Now, maybe this guy had plenty of good reasons to be an angry old man - the world hadn't treated him particularly well - but the fact of the matter is that it was probably better just to stay away from his house and not bother him.

        And the other thing is that America is running on fumes fiscally and economically. We can't afford our current domestic and foreign policy commitments, let alone some sort of multi-decade crusade to "democratize" the Arab world. In less than four years, 77 million baby boomers will start retiring. The shortfall for their entitlements is upwards of 100 trillion (10 trillion for social security, 52-60some trillion for medicare, trillions more for medicaid). These are bankrupting numbers, and we can't even pay for what we're doing now. It's all very crazy.

        "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

        by spot on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 11:05:27 PM PDT

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        •  No matter how you look at it... (none / 0)

          ...there are difficult times ahead.

          The mean old man would probably like to be left alone, wouldn't he?  But we're not doing that...are we?  And he's got his hillbilly brethren in the backcountry, itchin' to put you in your place if you come one...step...closer.

          We are at a critical point.  Right now.  We've become high-handed and self-assured in our prosperity, but it's going to end.  We ought to look deeply into the core of our values, and take honest assessment...are we, as a nation, really living up to our ideals?  Individually, maybe...but do we really police the heavy-hitting wrongdoers that we have spawned here?

          And if not, then who will?

          I'll bet you know.

          Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. --Friedrich Nietzsche (Beyond Good and Evil)

          by perspicio on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 11:16:07 PM PDT

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          •  I like this mean old man analogy. Do the hillbilly (none / 0)

            brethren sell moonshine on the side? Maybe grow a little hooch in the woods behind the homestead?

            "We are at a critical point.  Right now.  We've become high-handed and self-assured in our prosperity, but it's going to end."

            Good. We deserve it. Or how I learned to stop worrying and love the coming fiscal and economic apocalypse.

            "We ought to look deeply into the core of our values, and take honest assessment...are we, as a nation, really living up to our ideals?"

            That's the other spooky part though. Folks in the blue zone have a very different idea of what our ideals are than folks in the red zone. The country hasn't been so politically self-segregated since 1860.

            "but do we really police the heavy-hitting wrongdoers that we have spawned here?

            And if not, then who will?

            I'll bet you know."

            Well I know who Bush has in mind. Its the tens of million strong generation y that's just coming of age now, and who he plans to start drafting if he wins a second term.

            "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

            by spot on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 11:34:27 PM PDT

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