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  •  The trouble though is that the Islamo fascists (none / 0)

    make no distinction between the empire of Bush and the neocons and the UN & EU approved empire lite of the liberal internationalists, from Kerry to Clinton (you'll recall that al Qaeda was not a response to Mr. Bush's thuggishness, but began planning 9/11 during the Clinton years). The point is that we can't go back to what existed in the 1990s because it was part of the problem, and if Democrats don't want to support the lunatic neoconservative crusade to make liberal "democratic" client states out of Arab world, they need to come up with a compelling alternative. And the foreign policy bag of tricks only has so many options, of which a kind of pragamtic isolationist realism is probably the best. This means developing energy independence pronto, getting the hell out of the Muslim world (no bases, airfields - nothing), probably (sadly) restricting Muslim immigration, and probably (sadly) retalliating to future attacks on American soil by bombing countries from which terrorists who perpetrate the attacks come from.

    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

    by spot on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 10:31:18 PM PDT

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    •  No easy answers. (none / 0)

      It might be nice if we had a little less excess for a while.  Raising our kids in a nation of super-abundance is a good way to make sure they remain childish in their adult years, unable to grasp the compelling reasons for violence in parts of the world where survival -- individual and cultural -- is an issue.

      Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. --Friedrich Nietzsche (Beyond Good and Evil)

      by perspicio on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 10:35:37 PM PDT

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      •  The point though is that this isn't like the cold (none / 0)

        war when the threat of nuclear annihilation was real, but ultimately abstract. The American people will simply not accept a policy of containment, when containment means a massive attack on American soil every few years. We won the cold war largely by sitting it out, and waiting for the Soviet Empire, and the ideology that guided it, to die of its own accord. Our interventions and covert dirty wars didn't particularly help. What's different now is that both the neoconservative way and the liberal internationalist way are likely to make matters worse for us.

        "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

        by spot on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 10:42:00 PM PDT

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        •  We need to export our talents. (none / 0)

          If we simply continue to be materialistic prigs, we will most assuredly suffer repeated attacks.

          But if we devote ourselves and our vast resources to solving some of the tenacious problems around the world, like we did back in the Carter era (even with nuclear annihiliation on the horizon), then we will be instrumental in fostering a world community that doesn't unite around their common hatred of us.

          Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. --Friedrich Nietzsche (Beyond Good and Evil)

          by perspicio on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 10:48:39 PM PDT

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          •  I have no trouble with foreign aid and (none / 0)

            development assistance for most of the rest of the world, but much of the Muslim world has become like that mean old man who lived down the street with the nasty dogs and the shotgun whose house your father told you never to go near. Now, maybe this guy had plenty of good reasons to be an angry old man - the world hadn't treated him particularly well - but the fact of the matter is that it was probably better just to stay away from his house and not bother him.

            And the other thing is that America is running on fumes fiscally and economically. We can't afford our current domestic and foreign policy commitments, let alone some sort of multi-decade crusade to "democratize" the Arab world. In less than four years, 77 million baby boomers will start retiring. The shortfall for their entitlements is upwards of 100 trillion (10 trillion for social security, 52-60some trillion for medicare, trillions more for medicaid). These are bankrupting numbers, and we can't even pay for what we're doing now. It's all very crazy.

            "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

            by spot on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 11:05:27 PM PDT

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            •  No matter how you look at it... (none / 0)

              ...there are difficult times ahead.

              The mean old man would probably like to be left alone, wouldn't he?  But we're not doing that...are we?  And he's got his hillbilly brethren in the backcountry, itchin' to put you in your place if you come one...step...closer.

              We are at a critical point.  Right now.  We've become high-handed and self-assured in our prosperity, but it's going to end.  We ought to look deeply into the core of our values, and take honest assessment...are we, as a nation, really living up to our ideals?  Individually, maybe...but do we really police the heavy-hitting wrongdoers that we have spawned here?

              And if not, then who will?

              I'll bet you know.

              Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. --Friedrich Nietzsche (Beyond Good and Evil)

              by perspicio on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 11:16:07 PM PDT

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              •  I like this mean old man analogy. Do the hillbilly (none / 0)

                brethren sell moonshine on the side? Maybe grow a little hooch in the woods behind the homestead?

                "We are at a critical point.  Right now.  We've become high-handed and self-assured in our prosperity, but it's going to end."

                Good. We deserve it. Or how I learned to stop worrying and love the coming fiscal and economic apocalypse.

                "We ought to look deeply into the core of our values, and take honest assessment...are we, as a nation, really living up to our ideals?"

                That's the other spooky part though. Folks in the blue zone have a very different idea of what our ideals are than folks in the red zone. The country hasn't been so politically self-segregated since 1860.

                "but do we really police the heavy-hitting wrongdoers that we have spawned here?

                And if not, then who will?

                I'll bet you know."

                Well I know who Bush has in mind. Its the tens of million strong generation y that's just coming of age now, and who he plans to start drafting if he wins a second term.

                "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

                by spot on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 11:34:27 PM PDT

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    •  I agree (none / 0)

      we have created the problem.  We have supported monarchy regimes in order to battle communism and so have fertilized the seeds of the Islamic religious fundamentalists.  Hell, I don't blame them for lumping us all together.  You reap what you sow.

      My point was that continuing on the path we're on will lead to an escalation of the problem.  There are alternatives, albeit not easy or clear ones.  But we have to try.  We're going to have to deal with our sins of the past and it will be rough.  But anything is better than the course we're on now, which is guaranteed isolation from the rest of the planet.

      by The Free Man on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 10:43:06 PM PDT

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    •  An alternative to Islamofascism..Islamic Democracy (none / 0)

      One of the biggest problems in the Islamic world is that the dialogue between "tradition" and "modernity" has evolved into an all-or-nothing struggle between secularists who believe any recognition of Islam in the public sphere is a challenge to Western modernity and traditionalists who see any importation of "modernity" as a threat to traditional Muslim teaching (shades of our own fundamentalist idelogoues, no?). But there is a small group of political leaders who are trying to find a "middle way" that blends "modernity" with the traditional values. Probably the most prominent exponent in the Islamic world today is the prime minister of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The modern Turkish republic was established in the 1920s based on the belief that rigid secularization in the public sphere was essential to help Turkey "modernize", creating a disjunct with the strong Islamic core values of the majority of Turks. As Turkey has democratized in the past fifty years, there have been attempts to reinsert a public role for Islam in the public sphere. This has created a great deal of social and political upheaval in the 1970s, 80s and 90s between strict secularists and traditionalists who wanted to turn the clock back to before the 1920s, but that struggle seems to be moving towards an accomodation. I think PM Erdogan might be evolving the kind of blend that could offer that "middle solution."  Basically his model is that of the Christian Democratic parties in Western Europe that evolved after 1945 - parties that compete for power within a democratic framework and promote "traditional" values in society. I think this is what Erdogan wants to achieve in Turkey.  He is definitely not a fundamentalist - he would not be pushing reforms through the Turkish parliament to help gain acceptance for Turkey to become a full candidate for membership into the European Union if he was. But he believes there are values in Islam that should be recognized as being valid within the public sphere. His party may not necessarily be the most politically progressive party in Turkey, to be sure, but not completely reactionary either (and Erdogan has been good at promoting social improvements based on Muslim values of aid to the poor and destitute so there is a progressive element to his party.)   Hopefully when the Kerry administration takes office in January they will look at what Erdogan is trying to accomplish in Turkey and support his efforts and help move him in a further progressive direction.

      Evet, olabiliriz!

      by DanceboyOH on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 11:11:58 PM PDT

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      •  Yes, absolutely, and to the extent that the (none / 0)

        Iraq war might ever succeed, that would probably be the best outcome we could hope for (although there is a question as to whether the Sunni fundamentalists will accept a moderate Islamist democracy, and whether the Kurds will accept any real official role for religion). Back at the ranch, there might be a middle way too for American foreign policy between neoconservatism and liberal internationalism, which involves the promotion of Arab democracy by means other than military interventionism. Some folks think Kerry is entirely cool to any kind of democracy promotion, but others (including the New Republic, in their endorsement of him) think he would go further than Bush's ill fated democracy initiative or whatever it was called. I have no idea.

        My whole worry about this project is that once we have committed ourselves to it (and right now it seems we could still backtrack or jump ship) we end up with multi-decade curbs on economic freedoms, civil liberties, and freedom of expression. This is why the Taft Republicans warned about Wilsonian interventionism and democracy promotion during the cold war. Its no coincidence that the rise of cultural liberalism in the late 60s, the return of full civil liberties (particularly after the Church committee findings), and freedom of speech coincided with the death of Wilsonian idealism and democracy promotion as a cold war foreign policy in the jungles of Vietnam.

        "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

        by spot on Thu Oct 21, 2004 at 11:47:40 PM PDT

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